Silver Jews have a fine new platter, American Water, on Drag City. Leader Dave Berman and co-Jew Steve Malkmus of Pavement are UVA grads, and former Charlottesville, Va.knockabouts. This, combined with the increasing respect of Grip in indiedom (as if!!) were the impetus behind this phoner with DC Berman from his mom's Ohio house. Singing mule Paul Wilkinson, who used to walk dogs with DC Berman, is Grip & Virginiamusicflash's elected representative...

Dave Berman Do you really have questions or are you just going to shoot the shit?

Grip Monthly I really don't have questions.

Berman Good.

Grip Is it weird that you're a rock star? What does your mom think of that?

Berman Well, for one, I'm not a rock star. Number two all she knows is she has some unemployed guy with sores all over his body(living with her). Does that answer your question?

Grip What do you want to talk about?

Berman Let's talk about breaking up with your girlfriend.

Grip It's no fun. It's the worst thing imaginable.Don't you think? Agree or disagree.

Berman I do agree. if we can't do good on this earth, at least we should do as little damage as possible. Don't you agree,Paul?

Grip I agree one hundred percent. Physician heal thyself.

Berman (Laughs) I love that saying. That should be onsome state's license plate.

Grip Vermont. Don't they have the highest per capitaof doctors?

Berman That sounds good, but I don't know. One thing I saw that was freaking me out the other day, I was driving behind a Quebec license plate and I don't remember my french that well, but it seemed to me that the motto on the license plate said, "I remember myself." I thought that was a pretty good motto for a province. I think I might be a little rusty on the self reflexive/reflexive. I think there might be something missing there.

Grip I think it says liberty, fraternity, and equal sugar substitute. (Chuckles)

Berman Come on, let's go. Let's light a fire under this interview.

Grip Sorry! We should talk about American Water. One thing I love about the record is the vintage CBS faux spine graphic. Have people picked up on that?

Berman Uh, yeah.

Grip Oh man, I thought I was the smartest.

Berman Well, you're one of the only people, I mean one of the two or three people... I like that too, and like a lot of things,Paul, it's funny and it's serious at the same time.

Grip What do you mean by that? (laughs)

Berman The funny part is obvious. It's a parody of something that's everywhere and also nowhere. It's everywhere in the sense it's in everybody's record collection, and it's nowhere in the sense it's something you never think about normally. The serious part is that I think I came to a point somewhere in the last year or two where I decided I wasn't going to wait around any more for someone to say the Silver Jews were a great band, I was just going to say it myself. and I was going to canonize the band myself by that method. and as you know, only canonized bands get that spine. You know, Leonard Cohen and the Clash get that spine.

Grip Loverboy. They get it too. they're good. Do yousee yourself as like a Nice Price kind of deal? Would you be honored to bea Nice Price?

Berman I'm not taking it that far.

Grip No, would you like to be among the greatest hits of the Drifters, and the Clash?

Berman Doesn't that mean they made too many of them?

Grip No, that means it's a classic, reissued twenty years after it's first run. You still see Leonard Cohen's Greatest Hits now.

Berman The music is great, and the price is great.(chortles). It's a masterpiece of pricing.

Grip One of my first experiences with music was working at the library in high school and I'd read spines and backs of jackets, and it gives you this totally different experince of music, as opposed tosomeone who just cranks up the radio.

Berman It's a totally different idea. For one, you're looking at it sideways.. and literally and figuretively I think you shouldlook at music sideways. I actually just got up and looked at the vinyl--the spine on the vinyl is just regular white on black, and I'm wondering why that decision was made. On the vinyl it wouldn't make sense, because there isn't any famous spine font.But you know it used to be you could get your records made with the really heavy cardboard like classic rock records are made. there's this record pressing plant in Bella Platt,Lousiana, and if you've seen the vinyl for Twin Infinitives, most of the early Drag City records, The Arizona Record, it's that nice, heavy cardboard. No one will make that for you any more. Unfortunately you have to have the flimsy stuffnow.

Grip Thenew-wave-records-from-the-early-'80's-made-in-Canada kind of business?

Berman Let's just talk about the incidentals.

Grip What are the major themes of the record? Is that what you want to talk about?

Berman (Laughs) The major themes? I was originally going to call it the political album (chuckles)

Grip It was going to be kind of an Al Franken record?

Berman Where it's a title and also an announcemnt of what itis?

Grip No, who's that guy, Mark somebody, who plays the piano and has a bow tie.

Berman Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, Mark Somebody, the guy on PBS,that caterwauling fool who seems to be on our TV every late October.(Laughs) What is that guy's name? Mark Fuckface? (Mark Russell-- ed.)

No, but (the album) was personal politics, Paul. and I thought of it as a very political album. No one else did, so I changed the title.

Grip The first tune's kind of a break up tune, isn't it.

Berman It is. It's in the tradition of break up tunes.Yeah, it's funny cause remember the time Shannon Worrell had that party and I tried to get up and play a song and I was too drunk? That was the song I was trying to play (laughs). I was drunk, and the sun had set, and I couldn't see the guitar, I couldn't see my fingers, I couldn't feel my fingers, and that was the debut of that song. It's kind of funny because it's really elaborate, (the) story in that song, but no one of course can really tell it back to me beacause I leave so many thingz out and it seems really obvious to me what the story is and then if I ask someone what is the story (and) they can't really tell me. That happens a lot and that's something I plan to correct in the future. Not leave so many gaps in the narrative.

Grip Say-what-you-mean kind of business?

Berman Yeah but sometimes the music can set the mood and tone that in a short story you would have to write in. You can write more elliptically. But I'd like to try and write really air tight stuff.

Grip So if like a Nashville band set it up, or if Jimmy Cliff did a version, the whole would kind of roll itself out again.

Berman If Jimmy Cliff did my new song, um, "Jamming withthe Lord" (Laughs), you know, it would be totally different then when Ido it.

Grip For the b-side collection? (laughs). Jamming with the Lord! Is that your version of reggae, jamming with the lord? Wow,send five dollars for a calendar too.

Berman Is that all your questions? Do you want me to take over and do the rest?

Grip Did you give the band any direction on how to setup the stories? Or how to set up the Telos, as Dorothy Geller would say.

Berman Telos? What's that? is that greek for jam?(Laughs).

Steve (Malkmus) and I met in New Yorkin March, and I had written the songs in Jan. and Feb. 1998 and it's a funny story about the songs. I had gone to Chicago to write the songs.It's the first time I've ever said I'm gonna do this in two months instead of a year, and I tried to do it at the DragCity office. I had this idea that I would sit at this desk in my own little cubicle with all my shit around me and I would try and write songsthat way.

Grip Tin Pan Alley, kind of?

Berman Yeah, but it was too distracting and I couldn't.So I asked around and this woman was going to be away for two or threeweeks and gave me the keys. I would go in there every day from like noonto four, noon to five, and she had this really old heater. I would come in, turn it on, and it would takeabout and hour to warm the place up, and then I would write. and every daywhen I was writing I would get so tired. I started to get sick all thetime, nauseous, and I just didn't think about it. Every day (Dan) Koretsky would pick me up. I did a song aday, and about the seventh day, Koretsky pounded on the door, and I didn'thear him, I was asleep on the desk. He kicked the door open. I was passedout over the songs, and he shook me awake, and dragged me out, and I was sick for a week. She had itchecked out, and there was a horrible carbon monoxide leak, so I almostdied writing this record.

Grip Yikes!

Berman So a week later I showed Malkmus the songs in NY, hewrote some lead guitar parts, I listened to them and decided I wanted himon the record, and we agreed to meet back in New York in another month, weget back to NY and we don't have a band, so I go looking for a band. We got Mike Fellows, who used to bein Rites of Spring when he was 18. He plays bass. He also had played with(Royal) Trux for about three years. We had a drummer, but in discussingthe recording process, we had a lot of diferences, so we decided not to do it. so a week before the recordwe didn't have a drummer, and I went out to see a band called Essex Green,and I liked the way the drummer was smiling. He looked friendly, so Iasked him if he would play and he said yes.

Grip Did he know you from Adam?

Berman Nope. He knew the music, but we had never met.There was a guy I remember from years before, I had seen him on the streetwith like a Yamaha keyboard, really goofy, playing the whole album Let ItBe for change. It was a guy sort of like you, (Paul), the New England version of you. so I called a guy whoknew a guy who might know a guy where this guy might live. He lived inbrooklyn. I called him, he showed up, we practiced for 8 days . so when Iwould introduce the songs in the practice room., I would explain to the guys what the story of the song was,or, if there wasn't a story to the song, an angle at which they mightapproach it, by saying imagine you've just fallen off a cliff and you'retrapped in some rim rock (?) and your leg is broken and you have no way of getting home. I don't have thetechnical language to explain. So the piano player was over playing,playing better than us, being Liberace. So I was constantly coming up withmore metaphors for being broken down and sick. "You've just come back from a tour of vietnam, you've gotgonorrhea, crabs in your chest hair, your life is falling apart."

Grip And your woman just married someone in the States?

Berman Right. You've got a crushing headache, now play thepart. (laughs) And if that didn't work, "you've been reincarnated withDowns Syndrome. you still know how to play the piano, you just play it alittle more brokenly." If it didn't work, either me or Steve or Mike would play the part, just cause wecan't play.

Grip It felt like Natural Bridge was more of a Nashville studio band record.

Berman Definitely. Recording Natural Bridge was much different, living hell. This one was justa giant party. Fun the whole time, friends would come by and drop offdrugs, going out every night, trying to recover. Gatorade and rice andbeans during the day.

Grip That's good for the old GI. isn't it?

Berman Yeah really good. My piss is still burning.(laughs)

Grip Hemmorhoids, goiters, blood in you stool?

Berman I have this problem when I go to NY. I drink and doa lot of bad things and don't eat at all.

Grip When you say 'bad things,' you mean likeavoid jury duty? Cross against the light?

Berman Right. I don't vote, do crystal meth. So, for thefirst time in my life, I went a week without shitting. It wasn't because Iwas constipated, There was nothing there. I was terrified.

Grip And then you were ready to play those piano parts.

Berman Yes. The music just poured out after that.

Grip That's awful. You're too young a man to gothrough that, aren't you?

Berman Oh I don't know. So then I came to my mom's, andshe said I need to eat healthy so she fed me a greasy wet soppinghamburger. L She literally serves lard for dinner. Lard with spices onit. I thought it was tofu. I said Mom, you're serving health food. She said "suet?"

Grip What kind of spices, the traditional Ohio salt andpepper? That's the way it goes in the Buckeye State. Let me give you aplace and you give me your impressions. Ohio?

Berman Can't wait to leave. Fat ass farm girls, dead cornfields.

Grip Chicago?

Berman There's a cold wind coming off the lake. Poetry.

Grip Charlottesville?

Berman Red brick and DC attorneys.

Grip New York City?

Berman Sacrificing my body to the city. I love ny. and Iloved it before the first person said I love NY.

Grip Spain?

Berman Last time I was in spain, I got my ass kicked in astreet fight, like Jean Claude van Damme.

Grip Over Franco's legacy?

Berman No. It was seven cities in ten days on a presstour. Last day, I was burned out and had nothing to say after thishumiliating process. at the Spanish Caroline distributor's office, youwork from like noon to ten, talking all day, and they constantly feed you these spanish licquers, and these lines ofincredibly pure spanish speed. After dinner at his beautiful house inmadrid, instead of coffee, they again bring out the tray of Spanish speed.So we leave at midnight to see a band of some sort, and my host and his wife were walking down this charmingcobblestone street, and I was walking with this English couple, and thesefour motor bikes sort of nudged my host as they drove by, and my hostcursed them out in Spanish. So they turned around and drove back, spitting in my face as they drove by. I waswired, and that sort of pushed the kill button. So I grabbed the secondguy off the bike and started fighting. and he started kick boxing, whichmade me even madder, because I don't understand kick boxing, and didn't think it was something that could happento you in real life.

So I grabbed his lightning bolt kicks,dragged him down and was kicking the shit out of him, and don't rememberanything after that. Apparently to get me off him, his seven other friendsstarted kicking me. I passed out, and woke up fifteen seconds later, and was unable to stand becasue they kicked outthe eardrum in my left ear. I felt fine, but I didn't have any balance. Icouldn't stand, and for two weeks I had the tread and stars of one guy'sboot printed in red on my forehead (see pic above). There's blood pouring out of my head, and my hostsfelt so bad. They were like, "We're so sorry, this never happens inMadrid." But I said, let's not let this ruin things, so we went back tothe apartment, cleaned up, and went out until noon to Spanish discos.

When I sobered up, I realized the pain,and the Spanish emergency room is a whole 'nother story. But the ear ismostly healed up.

Grip Should the Grip Monthly reader, and I, as a personal friend, be worriedabout you?

Berman No. The only thing that worries me is that I neverused to get in fights, and I have gotten in five fights in the past twoyears, and I've started them all. I don't feel particularly angry.

Grip Was it the speed?

Berman Some weren't speed.

Grip Some were depressants?

Berman Yeah. Sometimes Percoset, Ativin. I can get bad onanything.

Grip So any pharmaceutical will open a can of whup-assfor you?

Berman Oh yeah.

Grip It's not a Rock Star death wish?

Berman You keep saying "Rock Star" and I take offenseat that.

Grip Sorry.

Berman I'm not saying I don't want to be a "RockStar". Let's not call it (that) now.

Grip Why, cause you'll slack off?

Berman No, it's not true!

Grip What are the Rock Star trappings you lack?

Berman Money! I'm broke. A house. A car that works.Everything else is fine. I need to make some more money. I'm going to tryto record more often. I'm going to record every year and a half insteadof two years. I've never made any bones about the fact that I only record when I run out of money. It's notabout art. I need to pay the rent, let's get in there.

Grip How much is your mom charging you?

Berman she's making me stack firewood, that's about it.Chores. but I'm out of here tomorrow, living on couches again. jammingwith the Lord (giggles). How's Otis Wants Bread? Did they ever makeit?

Grip They are currently in hiatus right now, Ibelieve.

Berman Hiatus, where's that? south of Toledo?

Grip It's right near Suffolk. People come and go inCharlottesville. Why did you leave?

Berman Because Michelle (ex-girlfriend) wanted to go. It'sthat simple. At some age I'd like to settle in one place, but you got toget new information, and you're guaranteed to get that in a new place, likea new band brings a new sound without trying. I'm thinking about wintering in Pensacola just becauseI've been told its such a bad idea. I need to be somewhere cheap andtrashy and warm. I want to lather up my body with warm trash.

Grip Roll in the filth at the bottom of the countrywhere everything boils down to?

Berman Yeah, it's like homeopathic garbage. Not likeNewark filth or Youngstown filth.

Grip If you could date any rock star, who would it be?That's a rock star trapping.

Berman Female musicians turn me off. I'm not proud of thatstatement, I'm not going to defend it in any way. if I was an attractivewoman in a room, and was lusting after her, if ten minutes later she got upand started playing music, I'd go cold. actresses are a different story.

Grip So, a line reading would be a turn on?

Berman Movies, not theater.

(Editor's Note LONG JENNIFER LOVEHEWITT TALK. CONVERSATION TURNS AROUND TO BABIES.)

Berman My songs are my babies.

Grip When you release them into the world you have aparental view.

Berman Yes and you know how it upsets me when you have achild and when someone says that somebody else is really the father. Nowyou know why I get upset when people talk about which parts Malkmus writeson the record. They try to make him out to be the father of my kids and it's bullshit.

Grip Say something about Gate Pratt, local co-author of"Honk if you're Lonely Tonight" (on American Water)

Berman Gay pride? I was always very supportive of theCharlottesville gay scene, all the way back to the Silver Fox, which is nowclub 69.

Grip Club 216!!!!

Berman I got a kick out of that, because the sign saysplease enter in rear. (chuckles) Gate Pratt is a great songwriter, and Iwas proud to record a song he co-wrote, and hope it inaugurates a longcareer for him.

Grip Anything about the Charlottesville scene?

Berman Hi to Thane Kerner. I always wondered if those wereBotany 500 suits he wears?

Grip (Pause) Where do you see yourself in the family tree ofrock?

Berman The band really hasn't hit its stride yet. Theeducation hasn't been caught on tape yet.

Grip If, like Robert Johnson, you were at theCrossroads, what would you say to The Devil?

Berman The Devil? I don't know, how is Courtney?

Grip If you're not selling alot of records, are youcommunicating?

Berman If you don't sell one hundred, you should quit. Onehundred, keep going.

Grip Does that include relatives, or should it be strangers?

Berman If it includes royalties, it includes relatives.

Grip Any advice for the youngsters?

Berman Stay in school, rock the vote, fuck censorship, youknow all that bullshit.

Grip If you could pick corporate sponsorship,who wouldit be?

Berman I would never do that, not to get serious on you.It is tantamount to immorality, pathetic. And I have friends who do it.Pavement for Hi-C, (laughs) Will Oldham for Swiss Army Knives.

Grip I thought it was swiss cake rolls?