Squirrel Nut Zippers

Old NEW Favorites

Grip's Don Harrison talked with Squirrel Nut Zippers 'songwriter / multi-instrumentalist Tom Maxwell on the eve of the release of their new Perennial Favorites. Maxwell talked about the origins of Hot music, the art of 'bleed-thru,' and how the band is dealing with the success that propelled them onto the charts with the smash hit, "Hell". . .

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Grip Monthly So, tell me about the Zippers' recording setup now. You recorded Perennial Favorites in an old house, right? It doesn't sound like it.

Tom Maxwell Oh, I think it does. When we recorded Hot at Kingsway (in New Orleans), we realized that the room was in fact a phantom member of the band. We could pretend it wasn't there, but it was there. . . especially on live recordings. It is not, in fact, your enemy. It can be, but I think so much of engineering the last 35 years has been to eliminate room and 'ambient' sound. This came to be known as 'bleed through,' so you've had many years of (players) close-miked to amps and doing tracks individually, thus clinically eliminating the room or adding reverb (to simulate it). Now, at Kensway, every room had a different personality that we could utilize to the best effect.

Grip Kensway? You call the home studio Kensway?

Maxwell Yeah, because Ken (Mosher, guitarist / horn player) lives there now.

Grip Was recording in a house like that a reaction against going into "real" studios.

Maxwell I think we started to figure our shit out at Kingsway, and that place kind of defined what a studio 'should be' to us. I would say it's a reaction, but more of an inspiration. Kingsway is such a lovely, nice place. It's just the difference between spending $1300 a day there or $250 a month renting an old house in North Carolina.

Grip Usually, when a band gets successful, that's when they want to go into a $1300-a-day studio.

Maxwell I think we believe in artistic self-containment. We believe in running the thing like a business and not at a deficit, despite the fact that the (recording industry) system is set up for you to operate at a deficit.

Grip Was recording the album by yourselves in a remote enviornment a common bonding thing?

Maxwell Recording can always be a bonding thing and if you get to sleep in your own bed at night that is a good thing too. (At the house) there would always be somebody cooking something in the kitchen and, y'know, we made it a nice place to hang out. We delegated one room to be the bar, called Club Inferno if you are going to be referencing Kingsway, and therefore New Orleans. . .

Grip Drinks!

Maxwell. . . it goes without saying.

Grip So the house was formerly the house of a piano teacher?

Maxwell Correct. She used to give piano lessons there. Hilda Bell. Hilda Bell's old house.

Grip That had to have some resonance with the band, recording in a piano teacher's house?

Maxwell Indeed. Physical resonance, because the house is almost all wood and plaster. Wood ceilings, wood floors and wood sideboards. Wood makes anything sound good woodwinds, strings. It just opens up, the room responded so well to the music we were playing. The baritone sax in a wood room sounds really freakin' good.

Grip Nice. Was it easy to record, though?

Maxwell We had six microphones, a Stuter 24-track, 2-inch reel to reel, and a gate tube compression that (The dBs') Chris Stamey lent us. . . an old '40's compression unit, one or two other compressors, and some pre-amps because some of the mics we were using were ribbon mics and thus needed some amplication. That was it.

(The recording) is a continual learning process, really. I mean, what is a mic's relationship to a particular instrument, or instruments. Say, for example, on "My Drag," the baritone sax and the violin were going into the same microphone. . . and it worked really well. It blended instruments beautifully. It's also where you can place a mic in a certain room the variables become, there's an just an amazing number of things to consider.

Grip You brought your engineer from Hot over to help. What does Mike Napolitano bring to the mix?

Maxwell Engineer, producer, pal.

Grip Is he like an unspoken member of the band?

Maxwell Indeed he is. He's a pal for one thing and he's an objective ear that we can trust. Plus he's an engineering whiz. We just love the guy. . .

Grip Did he also work on your Mammoth debut, The Inevitable?

Maxwell No, he did not. He did Hot with us.

Grip Speaking of that disc, what pressure was there this time to follow up the success of that, and the single, "Hell"? Hits like that don't come every day.

Maxwell Ah, you've got to understand that when we initiated this project (Perennial Favorites), in late '96, we didn't have a hit. We weren't big, so. . .

Grip A lot of the songs on the disc seem to comment on success, or money.

Maxwell We didn't know at the time how relevant those songs were going to be, although they were perfectly relevant when we wrote them. It's not like there wasn't already tension between art and commerce. It just obviously became more so. It was in the middle of the recording that the label guys came over to Club Inferno to tell us that "Hell" was getting played on the radio and we really didn't know what that meant. I mean, we obviously knew what that meant, but didn't know what that would entail.

Grip To me, it shocks me that you consdered radio, much less succeeded.

Maxwell Well, we as a band never tried to play up to radio but we're not businessmen and we don't own a label. We were perfectly happy with the way things were going we figured we were a crank band on a backwater label and completely left-field and moreover so called "alternative radio" is anything but so we figured that they would never give us a shot. We were aware enough to know that if they did (play us) that our perceived liabilities would become our assets the completely different approach we were taking to songwriting, instrumentation and approach would work to our favor.

So, I discounted it. Of course. (Laughs)

Grip What's the first single from Perennial Favorites?

Maxwell "The Suits are Picking Up the Bill" (is the first single)

Grip Usually, there's a philosophy by the record company to have the successful band just keep giving the people more of the same, while expecting the music to be more successful than the time before. Are you feeling that?

Maxwell Bean counters count beans. That's probably a question you should be asking (Mammoth Records). As a band, our songs are like children and you have to let them have their own life and you look forward to the next one. We're always looking ahead. My own definition of success has nothing to do with units moved, it has to do with improving my craft, am I playing my instruments better? Am I writing better songs. . . am I moving the bar?

I believe that we've all accomplished that with this record, and I can say that I'm satisfied. It languished a year and a half before its release. . .

Grip Because of the ride of Hot?

Maxwell Right. And that was the true downside of all the success.

Grip Are you sick of these new songs by now.

Maxwell We just never listen to it. That's the solution.

Grip Was there ever, in your development and before your success, any attempts by Mammoth to make you guys sound more contemporary?

Maxwell Never. Despite any number of crises and hair-pulling that might characterize part of our relationship with the label, they have never gotten in our business about the music that we make.

Grip Are you working on a new one now?

Maxwell Yes we are. A Christmas record. Almost all originals.

Grip I'd actually like to hear you tackle some great Christmas covers sometime.

Maxwell Absolutely. But are you going to top Nat Cole? No. (The Record will have) nine originals and one cover, which (drummer) Chris Phillips' grandfather wrote, and two standards.

It's truly the most recent snapshot of where this band is. . .that's not a vote of no confidence for Perennial Favorites, I'm satisfied and content with that as record, but you've gotta realize that we completed (the new disc) in Jan. of 1997.

Grip I recently saw some strange EP from you guys on Merge. When did you do that?

Maxwell That's the band's first-ever release, issued in December of '93, a month before I got in the band. I'm not on that. It's (a recording) of, like, the band's second show.

Grip A lot of bands are out there now, paying homage to jazz or swing music, wearing big suits, but the difference with you guys is that I feel you are progressive. . . you are taking this music somewhere instead of embalming it.

Maxwell Thank you. It's kind of onerous to me to be associated with the "swing' movement, just as it was onerous to me to associated with the "lounge" movement. Neither (tag) I believe applies to this band. We are idiosyncratic and always will be.

Grip The Zippers were connected to the "lounge" fad?

Maxwell Oh yeah, when The Inevitable came out, everybody declared us a 'lounge band,' which was. . . malarkey!

Grip Obviously, older music is the impetus and inspiration behind the Squirrel Nut Zippers. How is it that you are able to be inspired by old music like you are, and NOT resort to stock moves and dated fashion?

Maxwell Well, I think it's because our priority is the emotional content of the song. Music that sounds most dated and becomes most obsolete is music which aligns itself to any given fad. Disco is a relevant example.

The songs that were recorded which have a visceral and emotional effect on you never sound dated, regardless of how primitively they might have been recorded or how long ago. They jump out and grab you, and have a timeless quality. That's what we are shooting for, as a band and as songwriters, is a timeless quality to the music that will abide. But it's the kiss of death to try and jump on a bandwagon or assume some sort of style, some kind of satorial style based on musical gestures which might give you some short run attention. In the end, y'know, it's going to end up being so '1997.'

Frankly, cigars and martinis and zoot suits don't have fuckall to do with music.

Grip Would you describe yourselves as a "jazz band."

Maxwell You'd have to define 'jazz.' I don't know, 'cause 'jazz' has taken on a whole different meaning in the past 40 years.

I'd say we were a 'pop' band. A pop band that plays strange instruments. That might be the appropriate description. I'd also say (we're) 'Hot' music because everyone wants one word and that isn't a term that's been used in a long time and it's also sufficiently vague. We just call it the Zippers, man (laughs)

Grip You came out of the Chapel Hill, N.C. rock scene, right?

Maxwell Absolutely.

Grip Is Chapel Hill just a special place. Open-minded to different sounds and approaches?

Maxwell Yeah, there was a tremendous error in 1991 or '92 made from outside the community when people started coming in and claiming it was the next Seattle, so. . .

Grip We know the feeling. . .

Maxwell Ever since I've been playing in bands in Chapel Hill for, ah, y'know (chuckles) 12 years, there have been any number of phenomenal bands from the area, none of whom resemble each other musically. Therefore, it's a town that embraces diversity. The word 'scene' immediately denotes a homogenous quality, easily identifiable and pigeonholed. That's never been the case (with Chapel Hill). I don't think (the Zippers) would have ever attempted doing a project like this if we hadn't lived in a community that was so open-minded to embrace something that they thought was good.

There are a lot of good bands in this town. None of 'em sound like us. Ben Folds Five is a good example. And, of course, bands like Archers of Loaf and Superchunk don't bare any resemblence to us at all.

Grip Are you guys going to do a lot of touring to support the release of Perennial Favorites?

Maxwell (We'll start on the) West coast and work our way across. Not continuously, but between now and the end of the year we will have hit all the major markets in the country.

Grip Let me ask you about specific songs from the new record."Pallin' With Al" is a homage to Al Casey that you wrote. What would you tell someone who knew little about him.

Maxwell I'd say buy the man's records.

Grip He was the guitarist in Fats Waller's band?

Maxwell Yes. Here was a band (Fats Waller's Rhythm Band) that should be listened to because it was one of the best small bands of all time just a phenomenally talented group that made everything seem effortless but when you start to understand their accomplishment it's almost overwhelming. (Al Casey is) the last surviving member of this band and is still playing music today at 83. He was only sixteen when he joined the band.

Grip Wow. And I understand a bunch of you went to see Al recently.

Maxwell Yes, I've gotten to be friends with him. He's still playing every week (in New York CIty) with his band the Harlem All-Stars. And luckily for all of us, RCA-Victor has been steadily reissuing everything that he did with the Rhtyhm starting from '35 to '43. His style of playing is one that has basically fallen from favor for 50 years, sort of an acoustic rhythm style as well as chorded solos. Some single note stuff but most of it would be chorded just delightful way of expressing yourselves. Of course, when jazz guitar got amplified, the chorded style became more or less obsolete.

Grip Have you ever performed with him?

Maxwell We played a gig with him at Trammps (in New York), but we've never sat down. . . the last time I spoke with him on the phone, about a month and a half ago. I said, 'Look, Al, the next time we're in town we're going to bring some guitars and tall boys over and we're going to kick that shit around, and he's like, "oh yes. . ." (laughs)

Grip That must be special, to know one of your idols.

Maxwell Even more pleasing is that I have a friend. Our initial relationship was that of idol and fan but that's not condusive to any meaningful interaction. It's not a very human or nourishing interaction. I just realized that he was a guy, a player, like I am. . . it can be overwhelming if your cognizant of his contributions but he's a man, a fellow human being.

In "Pallin' With Al," I mention his signature tune twice, once with words and once with music. He wrote a song called "Buck Jumping," it was his signature song and he did it with Fats, and the opening figure that I play on the acoustic for "Pallin' With Al" is the same riff that he plays on "Buck Jumping." And then I mention the lyric in the song, "When he gets the right hand pumpin' / All them kitties got to start Buck Jumpin'"

So it's an homage as well as a tip of the hat.

You can find the original on The Last Years, a 3-CD set on RCA's Bluebird label. It's on disc three.

Grip Does the band put in a lot of those kinds of quotes and musicial in-jokes in the songs?

Maxwell Without a doubt. Like, on "That Fascinating Thing," Ken (Mosher, guitarist) plays part of a funeral march. Somewhere in the middle of the song there's a clean break and Ken quotes the funeral march, which is hilarious. There's all kinds of song quotes that we throw in to amuse one another. . .

Grip Your calypso tune, "Trou Macacq" is that adapted from another song, or from a traditional song?

Maxwell I'll tell you what it is, it's one of the standard calypso progressions of the '20's and '30's. You can sing about 20 different songs over it if you want. At that time, I think what those guys down in Trinidad was very much an alalog to the blues. Much of the time they were using very standard and accepted chord structures and it was up to the individial Calypsonian to write his own lyrics, melody line and riff and thus put his own stamp on the song. But both "Hell" and "Trou Macacq" are kind of conotical Calypsonian progressions. In fact, "Trou Macacq" actually is known as a passeo chord progression. I think you can trace that progression back to Bach.

Grip It's still a very fresh track.

Maxwell That's the idea. I mean there are guys playing the blues who are great, but its understood that its a I-IV-V chord progression. There's no mystery. Howling Wolf doesn't sound like Robert Johnson and neither one of 'em sound like whoever. Wolf sounds like he came from Mars and none of 'em sounded like Skip James... just like Lord Executer doesn't sound like The Growler even though they both used the passeo progression constantly.

I actually got the lyric for "Trou Maquq" from Lord Executer, he talks about 'the Monkey Track' in his song, "My Troubles With Dorothy."

Grip How about "Low Down Man" That's one of my favorites on the album?

Maxwell Yeah, that's a killer.

Grip Who is playing the pedal steel ?

Maxwell Steve Watson, a local boy.

Grip The steel sounds good, nothing flashy, just fitting in with the song.

Maxwell You just described what is the prerequesite for being in a band. Fitting into the groove. You always get a chance to get your licks in but you also know when not to play.

Grip Katherine (Whalen) 's vocals have never been better than on "Low Down Man" and "My Drag." As one of the songwriters, is it hard to write a "Katherine"-type song?

Maxwell It's so easy to stereotype and say, well, Katherine gets the ballad and I get the shouters and so on, but I also enjoy singing the slow songs and she always wants to do more upbeat songs. So it's not really a formula, other than trying to pitch it in the right key for us. Sadly, "The Kraken" is not in the right key for her. . . although the way that she sings it is beautiful. Live, though, it would never fly. We had to pitch it. She's the only person I know that can sing out of her range. It's mind-blowing. She was working her ass off (in the studio) and she hit all the notes. I was aghast that I was making her sing a song that was out of her key.

Grip She plays the banjo too, right?

Maxwell Yes. Banjo, ukelele, tenor guitar. . . phenomenal rhythm player. She doesn't get a lot of props for that because of her voice but the fact is that she's a great musician.

Grip I always imagine a show going on when I hear your music, a plot and characters. Have you ever considered doing a stage show or anything like that? Songs like "The Ghost of Stephen Foster" just seem like great show tunes, you could put 'em in a musical right now.

Maxwell I love the idea. We did a collaboration with some dance troups in Durham that was fun, where they had worked up routines to our songs and that was just delightful. We were all onstage playing while they were dancing and it was just thrilling. Of course, it's very flattering to have people become so inspired by what you do. I'm always interested in where different forms of art come together. I direct the videos for the band. . .

Grip Ah, so you're the guy, huh?

Maxwell I directed "Hell" and a video for "Suits are Picking Up The Bill" I worked with my friends Norwood and Grady on those. That's what I went to school in. . .

Grip Usually, the label likes to hire out for big videos. Get guys like Spike Jonze in there. How did you get to do the videos?

Maxwell Well... it was a bit of an uphill battle for me. Katherine paints and Jimbo (Mathus) makes puppets and they used to put on puppet shows and all that stuff just comes into play. We've always been interested in scoring music for a film or something but we haven't had the opportunity yet.

Grip "Suits" even sounds like the beginning of a show, with its long intro.

Maxwell The creators of "The Simpsons" are (also) doing an animated video of that song and it's really good. I've seen the storyboards for it and it's very kick ass.

Grip We were talking about "The Kraken" before. That song sounds very 'art-pop.'

Maxwell One of my main inspirations for writing that song was Raymond Scott (the composer behind many of the Warner Brothers cartoons) and Django Reihardt. Some of the stuff that Reinhardt was doing later in his life, in the late '40's and early '50's, had a very angular quality to it. It wasn't really Bop, but it had sort of the same rhythmic swing elements. . .

Grip In the end, where do you forsee the band taking its sound in the years to come?

Maxwell I hope we'll continue to grow, like any living thing.

(To access my review of the Zippers' Perennial Favorites, go to www.amazon.com.-- D.H.)